8. And the Same Old

I started a new journal called “Peace to Be Myself” as I had started giving my journals titles. I was angry. Each time I read the transcript I was angry. I wrote: “I am here. I exist. I am important. I have a purpose in being here – to be me. I am angry. I am pissed off at the church and all they took from me; they just about took away my God; the few men who took away my God; the few men who control what the church says and does, men in their quest for power and who don’t care who gets hurt. I’m pissed of that I’m in bed at 8:00 at night and spend my days crying, know I will never be part of the Catholic church again. But I can keep the God of my childhood, my youth, my marriage, adulthood, the God I have now that has changed and grown and all encompassing; not a male God and there will be days when I’ll still go back to the male God – he didn’t do this and can be an example of a loving father, grandfather, uncle, man, and yet now I know, God is more that mother, grandmother too – it’s all and everything – universal hardly says it all. Church for me now is community, the community I’ve built around me – not just now but all my life and I built it by being me; the best I can be and yes they are all Jesus and all God and so am I. I can’t be Catholic again because by their lies, if they take God or Spirit or life away from one person, they are killing them and I can’t be part of that and they do that when one person has more power than another.
Q.B. No. 657 A.D. 1997



– And –

(One of the Defendants)

Held in the city of Big City, Province of Saskatchewan,
Friday, August 8, 1997.

My Lawyer Saskatoon Office
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan

Allinblack Lawyer Big City Office
Regina, Saskatchewan

Church Lawyer Big City Office
Big City, Saskatchewan

——————————————————————————————————————–REPORTING SERVICES LTD.
Big City, SK

Q.B. No. 001 A.D. 1997
– And –

(One of the Defendants)

THE EXAMINATION FOR DISCOVERY OF ALLINBLACK, one of the Defendants, took place in the city of Big City, Province of Saskatchewan; the witness having first been DULY SWORN Friday, this day of August, A.D. 1997, commencing at 10:00 A.M.







1 Q Mr. Allinblack, you were sued by Sharon Speaks of Saskatoon with regards to some incidents which took place while you were serving as a Roman Catholic priest at Church, Saskatchewan; is that correct?
A Yes.
2 Q And that is why we’re here today, to talk about that incident and a few other things I need explained, if that’s okay?
A All right.
3 Q She types down everything that we say, so when you answer you have to answer yes or no or respond in some way verbally
A Okay.
4 Q Now, in your Statement of Defense you admit that on November 28th, 1994, you entered a plea of guilty to a charge under Section 141 of indecent assault in relation to Sharon Speaks?
Allinblack lawyer: That’s correct.
A Yes.
5 Q And in addition to pleading guilty to that charge, do you admit that an incident of indecent assault occurred with her?
A No. It didn’t occur.
6 Q There was never any indecent assault with Sharon Speaks?
A No.
7 Q Why did you plead guilty?
A That was the advice of my counsel.
8 Q Your lawyer you mean?
A Pardon.
9 Q Your lawyer you mean by counsel?
A Yes.
10 Q Yes.
A And their opinion that I wouldn’t have the embarrassment of a trial with the newspaper men there, and it would also be easier for those who who were charging me, it wouldn’t be so embarrassing for the girls.
11 Q Sharon Speaks wasn’t the only indecent assault you plead guilty to at that time, correct?
A No.
12 Q There was a number of them?
A Yes.
13 Q Do you deny all of them?
A No.
14 Q Some of them occurred and some didn’t?
A Right.
15 Q Do you remember who Sharon Speaks is?
A Her name was Harvest at that time.
16 Q How old was she at that time?
A Oh, I don’t know.
Allinblack lawyer: You have to speak up because it has to be recorded, okay? Speak up.
A She’d be around seven or eight year old I think.
17 Q Do you recall teaching her the material that she would require to learn for communion?
A No. I didn’t do it personally, it would be done by the nuns that were there.
18 Q You didn’t do anything like that, or do you recall?
A I don’t recall.
19 Q Okay. How many different girls did you plead guilty to; do you recall?
A 15, was it?
Allinblack lawyer: We believe it was 15.
20 Q That’s fine. Fair enough. How many of them did you actually assault?
A Ten.

21 Q Okay. Okay. In your statement of Defense you indicate that you were the Roman Catholic priest serving at Church, Saskatchewan, from 1956 to 1967?
A Right.
22 Q Now, when did you become ordained?
A April of 1949.
23 Q And what order were you ordained in?
A Diocesan Priests for Big City Diocese.
24 Q Would the Bishop of Big City then ordain you?
A The Bishop then, yes.
25 Q At that time?
A Yes.
26 Q Okay. And is it correct, sir, that the first office that you held was at Quinney, Saskatchewan, from July, 1949, to November, 1949?
A Yes.
27 Q And then the next office that you held – is that the correct word, office?
A Well, it will do.
28 Q Pardon me?
A It will do.
29 Q It will do, okay. We know what we’re talking about?
A Yes.
30 Q And the next office you held as a priest?
A Yes.
31 Q Was at Big City Cathedral in Big City from November, ’49, to January, 1950?
A Yes. I was there.
32 Q What were you doing there, sir?
A More or less hanging my hat.
33 Q Waiting to be posted somewhere?
A Waiting for a definite posting.
34 Q Pardon me?
A There were already three priests there.
35 Q Who decides where you would be posted?
A That is the bishop’s final decision. The final decision is his.
36 Q Okay. And the bishop is – he is the bishop that makes that decision where priests go for a certain geographic area; is that correct?
A Yes.
37 Q And would that be similar to the Province of Saskatchewan, or does he have an area greater or smaller that that?
A It’s a section of Saskatchewan. It’s the corner. You know, on the east side you go up to – it goes up a ways past Kammy, and then it goes over to the River, and then down south from – Riverton is still in the diocese here and the line goes between Annibee and what other town is there?
38 Q Greater?
A This side of Annibee.

39 Q This side of Annibee, okay.
A My geography leaves me now.
40 Q No Mountain?
A No, no. You’re going the wrong way, Annibee and something on this side.
41 Q Okay.
A What is there?
42 Q My geography leaves me too.
A Placeneven (ph) is in there.
Allinblack lawyer: Other names?
43 Q That’s okay. Did you serve as a priest only in that Diocese that you’ve just described?
A Yes.
44 Q And after –
A But there was – there’s an anomaly there with the – actually St. Peaceful’s, you know, the church, it’s actually in the abbacy, but because it was originally part of a colony, you know, what they called the Irish colony, they were allowed to remain with Church, but that was an accommodation between the Abbot and the —
45 Q That’s why Church was so small I suppose.
A Well, it was part of the area, you know, these Irishmen there. This Father Church, there was a priest named Father Church, he came and wanted to start a colony. He brought over some Irish and there were some English there too.
46 Q After being at Big City Cathedral until January, 1950, you then went to Winter Valley from January, 1950, to September, 1950?
A Yes. I went to replace a priest who was sick.
47 Q Then came back to the Cathedral from September, 1950, to December, 1950?
A Yes.
48 Q And then you were posted to Trevaire?
A Trevaire, they call it.
49 Q December, 1950, to February, 1951?
A What was the date again?
50 Q I have it as December, 1950, to February, 1951?
A That would be about right, yes.
51 Q Just for a couple months?
A Yes.
52 Q Yes. And then to Washer from February, 1951, to April, 1951?
A Yes. I was replacing priests who were on holidays.
53 Q In Trevaire and Washer?
A And Washer, both.
54 Q And then you went to Lestock for almost two years, from April, ’51, to August 28th?
A A little over two years.
55 Q August 28th, 1953?
A Yes.
56 Q What was your job there?
A I was what they call a curate at that time, now they call it associate pastor, with the pastor that was there.
57 Q This is at the church in Lefta or at the school?
A At the church.
58 Q Any of the charges that you plead guilty to arise with young girls in Lefta?
A No.
59 Q Are you aware of any allegations from people as to incidents of indecent assault between yourself and young girls in Lefta?
A No.
60 Q Do you know a Heoragina Line Gasher?
A Yes. She made allegations, but then it was dropped, it didn’t even get to trial.
61 Q She made allegations to the police or to the church; to your knowledge?
A Well, to the church she did, yeah.
62 Q You’re aware she was paid a settlement?
A Yes. I heard that.
63 Q Okay. Are you – is it your evidence under oath today that any – any allegations she made were false?
A Yes. They were false.
64 Q Okay. It’s not a matter of you not recalling something happening, it’s a matter of you stating definitely it was false?
A Yes.
65 Q Were there any other allegations from any other people, false or otherwise, while you were at Lefta?
A No.
Allinblack lawyer: Just a minute. The question – the allegations, Counsel, those allegations came out a long, long time after, not while he was at Lefta, but came out long after.
Plaintiff lawyer: I appreciate that.
Allinblack lawyer: I didn’t want to mislead you in any way.
Plaintiff lawyer: You’re referring to the allegations of Heoragina Line Gasher? Allinblack lawyer: Yes.
66 Q I’m referring to allegations that have come up any times in the last 40 years, 50 years?
A No.
67 Q Okay.
A Well, there was allegations came up from her, but they were only allegations, you know.
68 Q You said that you were the curate and now the position would be called associate priest?
A That is the present parlance, yes, associate pastor.
69 Q Associate pastor, pardon me. Who was the other pastor then?
A Harold Piles.
70 Q Father Piles?
A Yes.
71 Q While you were – I am going to take you back there now to 1951, ’52, ’53. While you were there were there any allegations about Father Piles assaulting anyone?
A I never heard any.
72 Q Fair enough. After you were in Lefta you were the pastor at Caterill?
A Yes.
73 Q August 28th, 1953, to September 1st, 1956?
A Correct.
74 Q And what was your title there?
A Parish Priest.
75 Q This was kind of a promotion?
A Yes.
76 Q Now, if these assignments, these moving from, for instance, from Lefta to Caterill, use that for an example and your promotion, these are things decided by the bishop?
A Yes. But he had usually someone, a committee or someone who would work out, you know, different moves, you know, in the Diocese.
77 Q Yes.
A The final say always was the bishop’s
78 Q Were either of these communities rich enough to look after you, or did the bishop have to make sure you had housing an clothing and wages, that sort of thing?
A No. I made it without his help. Well, he did – gee, I don’t remember. When I bought my first car, you know, whether I borrowed money from them or what. Yeah, I just don’t remember.
79 Q So they didn’t pay for your accommodation?
A No.
80 Q At any time during your career as a priest did they?
A No. I was —
81 Q As I understand it, you are to try and – try and get all of those things out of the community that you are living in?
A Right.
82 Q If you’re unable to do that then the bishop will assist you; is that the program?
A Yes.
83 Q Are you versed at all in Canon law?
A Canon law?
84 Q Yes?
A Not – I wouldn’t say so, no.
85 Q You’re aware that there’s a hierarchy set out in which the bishop is responsible for such things as your wages and things like that if the community can’t?
A I wouldn’t know the ins and outs of that.
86 Q You’re aware though if you do something wrong the bishop can, in popular parlance, defrock you?
A Yes. Yes.
87 Q And if you – if he takes away your right to priestly functions, then you can’t act as a priest anyplace?
A Right.
88 Q Okay. Then you moved to Church?
A Right.
89 Q Was there any particular reason why you moved to Church?
A On the Bishop’s requests or orders.

90 Q Were you given any reason?
A No. Caterill was considered a difficult place and they didn’t leave anybody there unless they asked to be there, because one of the missions we had to go to was 70 miles away.
91 Q It was hard work?
A It the wintertime, you know, you had to watch.
92 Q Okay. While you – have any of the incidents of Indecent assault that you plead guilty to, did any of those arise during the time that you were at Caterill?
A No.
93 Q Have there been any allegations, whether true or false, of anyone about you while you were a pastor at Caterill?
A No.
94 Q And then you moved to Church September 1st, 1966, and you were there until September, 1967?
A Correct.
95 Q Were you the only priest there, or was there an associate that worked with you?
A No. I was the only one.
96 Q Were you assisted by nuns?
A There were nuns teaching in the local school at Church.
97 Q Were there – I am not sure of the words here. Were they nuns of service?
A The Sisters of Service was their name.
98 Q The Sisters of Service was their name?
A Yes.
99 Q And did they do housekeeping for you, things like that?
A No. But I said mass every morning and had breakfast there. That’s as far as it went.
100 Q You were there for quite awhile?
A 11 years.
101 Q 11 years. During that time was there, like, a head nun with the Sisters of Service?
A Well, the local Superior, yes.
102 Q The local Superior. Pardon me if I get the words wrong. And the local Superior, was that the same person throughout the 11 years?
A I don’t think so, I don’t know. I don’t even remember who the first one was though.
103 Q Do you remember the second one then?
A What was her name? Her name is gone too.
104 Q They were just sisters there that you remember?
A Yes. My memory of names is spotty these days.
105 Q Of the 15 or so charges to which you plead guilty, how many of those occurred while you were at Church?
A All but one.
106 Q All but one. And what was the last one, the other one?
A Pardon?
107 Q What was the other one?
A Her name you mean?
108 Q Her name and where did that take place?
A Her name, that’s Vanny Cart.
109 Q And where did that take place?
A At the Big City Cathedral, here in Big City.
110 Q That was after you left Church?
A Yes.
111 Q While you were at Church –
A But she’s one that I wasn’t guilty of –
112 Q That one you weren’t guilty of?
A — of molesting her.
113 Q Why did you plead guilty to that one, sir?
A Well, for the same reason. The sentence would be the same for one or 15.
114 Q Of the ones that took place in Church, Saskatchewan I take it, and I’m just trying to do my math here, ten of them actually took place?
A Well, there would be nine , because theere was one in Big City.
115 Q So they – those ones that you plead – of those ones that you plead guilty to, nine of them you say actually took place while you were a pastor at Church?
A Yes.
116 Q Did any of those nine young girls make complaints that you were aware of at that time that you were in Church?
A I wasn’t aware of any.
117 Q No one came and confronted you about this while you were at Church?
A No.
118 Q Did you tell anybody what was going on?
A No. I didn’t tell anyone.
119 Q Why is that, sir?
A Pardon?
120 Q Why is that?
A Well, I felt I could beat it, but it beat me. I mean, I would stop —
121 Q You confessed to —
A –molesting.
122 Q Did you confess to it?
A Yes.
123 Q At the time?
A In confession, yes.
124 Q At that time?
A Yes.
125 Q Did anyone talk to you about it from the church, any other priests or anybody from the bishop’s office?
A No.
126 Q Not at all?
A Not at all.
127 Q Were you aware of any other priests in your diocese who during the fifties and sixties there were complaints like this made about them?
A During the fifties and sixties?

128 Q Yes.
A No. I was not aware of any.
129 Q You’re not aware of any? So you weren’t afraid to tell anyone because you knew of certain repercussions that might occur?
A Well, mostly my own embarrassment at that time to admit that.
130 Q Right. Had you told anyone, you didn’t think you’d be fired or defrocked, or whatever the proper term is?
A That probably was in the back of my mind too, yes.
131 Q Father Pilers is deceased?
A Yes.
132 Q Now, while you were at Church there was a circuit that you had to look after?
A Yes.
133 Q And that included St. Peaceful’s Church?
A Yes.
134 Q And —
A Legend.
135 Q Legend? There was a church in Legend?
A Yes.
136 Q But you lived in Church?
A Yes, for ten of those eleven years, and the tenth year we built a rectory in Legend and I moved to Legend for the last year I was there.
137 Q Okay. So was it just those three communities that you were responsible for?
A Yes.
138 Q As part of your responsibilities what dealing would you ordinarily have with children?
A I was coach of the boys’ hockey team and baseball team and football.
139 Q Any other – any other church, spiritual responsibilities?
A Well, there the nuns took charge of many things. I did teach in the summertime at Legend.
140 Q You’ve read Mrs. Speak’s Statement of Claim?
A Yes. That’s from the Preliminary Hearing, yes.
Allinblack Lawyer: The Statement of Claim.
141 Q Our suit, our lawsuit against you that we served on your lawyer, you read that?
A Oh, this last one, yes.
142 Q She said she attended at the Roman Catholic Church in Church, Saskatchewan to prepare for her first communion?
A St. Peaceful’s actually.
143 Q Okay. To prepare for her first communion with you?
A Yes.
144 Q Do you recall that?
A I don’t remember the incident, no.
145 Q That’s possible though? That was part of your duties?
A Yes. If they had rehearsal I would probably be there.
146 Q Okay. And being a Catholic Church there was a confessional booth in the church?
A Yes. But a very small one.

147 Q Very small. Is that right?
A Yes.
148 Q How big are you? How tall are you?
A Six one.
149 Q And you’re slight. Were you slight in those days too?
A Yes.
150 Q Any of the young girls that you did sexually assault and to whom you’ve plead guilty, any of those nine, did you threaten them if they told anybody about it?
A No. I never threatened any of them, no.
151 Q What did you tell them would happen if they told someone?
A I never told – said anything about that. I never used that angle?
152 Q What did you do?
A I just tried to make friends with them, get them to come to me with silly — silly jokes, you know, and silly tricks.
153 Q But you were embarrassed by what you were doing?
A Yes. Afterwards, yes.
154 Q Afterwards. So at the time you weren’t afraid of getting caught?
A Well, I tried to be careful.
155 Q And you’re suggesting that you never threatened any of the girls?
A No.
156 Q Did they all testify at the Preliminary Hearing?
A Pardon?
157 Q Did they all testify at the Preliminary Hearing?
A No.
158Q Q A number of them did though?
A Yes.
159 Q Do you recall that the ones who did testify testified that you threatened?
A Pardon?
160 Q Did any of them testify that you threatened them at the Preliminary Hearing?
A Yes. On the reports, yes.
161 Q Why did you leave Church?
A Because I was asked to leave.
162 Q You may want to talk to your counsel for a minute.
Allinblack lawyer: No. Go ahead.
Plaintiff lawyer: If he’s inaccurate about that I don’t want to pin him down to something that might not be correct.
Allinblack lawyer: You might have to explain. When he asks you might have to explain why.
A Why what?
Allinblack lawyer: When you answer you said you were asked to leave, you might want to explain, asked by who. Do you understand?

163 Q I will just ask you that question again in a different way. How did it come to pass that you left Church?
A Well, the (inaudible) made up the moves we call them.
COURT REPORTER: I didn’t hear what you said.
A The bishop, you know, at least when they’re finalized he comes and asks, sends you a letter, you know, you’re being posted to such and such a place at such and such a time with no reasons given.
164 Q Can you appeal that?
A Yes. You could.
165 Q Did you?
A No. And at about that time there were little, I don’t know, what would you –what you would call them then, moods, among the priests, you know, developed, and no one would remain in a parish over ten years.
166 Q I see.
A Between five and ten years. One, for his own good, and the other, for the people’s good, so they don’t get —
167 Q Kind of an unwritten policy?
A Yes.
168 Q So you were —
A That was developing about that time.
169 Q So you were ready to move?
A Yes.
170 Q Are you aware of any other complaints about sexual assaults which occurred while you were at Church?
A Would you repeat that, please?
171 Q Were you aware of any – have there been any other complaints about sexual assaults while you were at Church besides the ones you were presented with at your criminal trial?
A Yes. There was some.
172 Q These were ones that did not go ahead?
A No.
173 Q Okay. And did you sexually assault anyone else besides the people who have complained?
A No.
Allinblack lawyer: Counsel, I think this – I might have to interject here. Some of those answers could lead to some criminal sanctions. He has been charged with certain offences, it’s possible those could lead to other criminal sanctions, so we wish to ensure that we have the protection of The Evidence Act, The Criminal Evidence Act, Canada Evidence Act, with respect to the answers. Do you understand?
Plaintiff lawyer: Fair enough.
Allinblack lawyer: We’ll put it on the record.
174 Q My question is did you sexually assault anyone else besides the people that complained to the police?
Allinblack lawyer: You have to answer the question.
A Yes.
175 Q While you were at Church?
A Yes.
176 Q Could you provide me with the names of those people?
A I’d rather not.
177 Q Ask your lawyer.
A Yes.
Allinblack lawyer: What is the purpose of that?
Plaintiff lawyer: Can we go off the record?
178 Q After you left Church you went to the Big City Church again, the Cathedral in Big City?
A I went to the Catherdral, yes.
179 Q And you were there for about four years?
A Yes.
180 Q ’Til July 31st of 1971?
A ’71, yes.
181 Q Is that Holy Church and the Cathedral two different things?
A Yes.
182 Q You were at Holy Church then until 1971, and at the Cathedral from August, ’71, to July 31st, ’75?
A Correct. Yes.
183 Q What were your duties at Holy Church and at the Cathedral? Were they different?
A No. I was parish priest.
184 Q In both?
A Parish priest in Holy Church, but I would be, what do they call that now, it’s slipped. Actually the Bishop, you see, is parish priest of his own Cathedral, you know.
185 Q Right. But you still functioned as a priest though?
A Yes. Pretty well. So any major decisions I would have to ask the Bishop, you know.
186 Q Then you were transferred to Veristy?
A Yes.
187 Q Veristy Parish, I guess?
A Yes.
188 Q August 1st, `75 to July 29th, 1982?
A Yes.
189 Q And then the surrounding area after that for eight years?
A Eight years, yes. ’82 to ’90.
190 Q And then at Censor?
A Correct.
191 Q Until August of ’92?
A Correct.
192 Q Then you retired?
A Then I was asked to resign.
193 Q Asked to resign?
A Yes.
194 Q When – why is that, sir?
A Because allegations of molestations had been made against me.
195 Q Okay. As I understand it in the early eighties the policy came out for priests who had been involved in these molestations that there was a program began to be available for counselling and therapy, that sort of thing. Were you aware of that?
A I don’t know when they set up their program, but it’s – I am not sure of the dates.
196 Q You’re aware that there was such a program set up later in your career?
A Not a program, but at least a committee that would look into it, you know.
197 Q I see.
A I was sent for therapy too, but they sent me to St. Louis, Missouri.
198 Q Yes. Prior to being sent to St. Louis and while you were still a priest, before you were asked to resign, you were aware that there was this committee available and that they were providing therapy?
A I don’t know when it was set up, what year, I couldn’t say for sure.
199 Q Would you agree with me that it was before August of ’92?
A Yes.
200 Q Did you ever voluntarily present yourself to that committee?
A No.
201 Q Did you ever receive counselling while you were still a priest?
A Well, at retreats and readings, those kinds of things.
202 Q For problems that might –
A Not about –
203 Q Not about that?
A Not about this subject, no.
204 Q Okay. Just a few general things. The priest is expected to be the spiritual leader of the community?
A Yes.
205 Q And that includes the children in the community?
A Yes.
206 Q And the bishop has the power to basically control where you work?
A Yes.
207 Q Whether you can even be dismissed –
A Yes.
208 Q — from a position? The bishop has the right to tell you you have to do this job, you can’t sell real estate on the side or something?
A Yes. I guess he has the right, but sometimes it’s you know, how do you handle this man, you know, what is the best way. Maybe we –
209 Q In other words, he has the right to your exclusive services? If you’re going to be a priest you work for the church?
A Yes. But there can be small things, you know.
210 Q So things – you’re aware things have happened where priests have had their own little businesses?
A Yes.
211 Q If the bishop says don’t do that any more he has to stop?
A Or he can walk off too and find another bishop, you know.

212 Q I guess so. And the bishop determines where you work?
A Yes. Well, yeah, you can say that.
213 Q Essentially.
A I say, he has a committee, or one time it was kind of one man, Monsignor, now his name is gone too.
Diocesan lawyer Lineman.
A Lineman, yes.
214 Q He ran a tight ship, did he?
A He did the footwork, you know, and the questions, and he had this list and go through it and okay, or, well, no, no, not that one.
215 Q I see.
Allinblack lawyer: You have to talk a little slower, a little more concisely.
A Sorry.
Plaintiff lawyer: I understood him.
A Maybe we should leave some of it out anyway.
216 Q To your knowledge did the Bishop or any other representative of his office or the church ever make any inquiries about whether you were suitable to be a priest?
A That was pretty much left to the seminary staff.
217 Q So once you were ordained it was your understanding that that was it, there were no further checks made to see whether you were suitable?
A You mean psychological checks and that kind of thing.
218 Q Yes.
A Not formally anyway. Like, I mean, the bishop would always have his estimation of what this fellow is worth or what he’s like.
219 Q But there was no testing, official testing, or anything done.
A No.
220 Q You would just have people you would talk to and that sort of thing?
A Yes.
221 Q Did any of the sexual assaults that you plead guilty to that you agree you actually did, take place in the church at St. Peaceful?
A No.
222 Q They all took place in your rectory?
A Very few in the rectory there at Church. No – yeah, very few, one, two.
223 Q Where did they take place?
A At their homes mostly.
Plaintiff lawyer: Okay. I guess I’d like just one more thing and that’s if you could put on the record your objection to my question. I am sorry that we went off the record. I guess your objection is that it’s irrelevant?
Allinblack lawyer: It’s irrelevant, and there are a number of other considerations, not only the potential it means to these families, but also to Mr. Allinblack in terms of your client, and particularly whether or not it adds anything to your client’s case, and we feel it does not.
Plaintiff lawyer: As against him?
Allinblack lawyer: Yes.
Plaintiff lawyer: Okay. Thank you. I have no further questions.



CERTIFY that the Transcript of Evidence as written on the
preceding pages is, to the best of my knowledge, skill
and ability, a true and correct Transcription of my
Stenograph notes taken at the Examination for Discovery of
ALLINBLACK, one of the Defendants, herein.

(Q.B. No. 001 of 1997) (J.C. Saskatoon)


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When I realized how many people were in my life, realized I had built a community and that my book could be part of building community – for people beginning a healing journey; that people I know will not learn anything new but they can pass it on to someone beginning and we can be back to – one person can make a difference. We are all God. We are all creating.
 Deep, deep crying for one and a half hours with my cousin and all day as if I could see an end to my coffeeing every morning, an end to cigarette smoking, an end to continual soul pain, had my faith in God again – God is all, God is spirit, God is people – rocks; all that is.
Collage September 19, 1997
It was like I was haunted all my life; by the rape, by the put downs in my house, by the molestations of both my brothers and felt like it was something that I just had to bear in silence and if I’d be good enough, work hard enough, be the pious Catholic girl, pious Catholic wife, it would all be okay. It would all go away. It didn’t. It kept haunting me. It was always there. It’s why I ended up in an abusive marriage, why I couldn’t trust people, it had hundreds of after effects; the reason for the darknesses. It is the little pearls of light – people, the sun, the moon, plants, gifts, candles, money, animals, caring that has got me through – natural things – that are giving me back my identity. Together we can change the world. I no longer have to be wary of memories. I have time to do the work I can do; can do by being myself, the caring for self and others, we will reshape the world with caring for all and each one can rise above hurts holding them down. I am no longer in the wilderness as the girl stays grounded in her truth, we will build new roots that will grow and blossom into beauty beyond measure. The old will deteriorate and rot away and no longer be at her back haunting her as the new growth choked it out; any good that was in it will be the compost for building the new. The answer is inside of me – it’s not out there, out there is for me to enjoy.
 I met with my two lawyers. Surprised me that he wanted to keep going. Ended with the woman lawyer will contact church lawyer; arrange psychologist for assessment, proceed to work out settlement for future care costs. At same time he would invite church lawyer or Allinblack’s lawyer to come to Saskatoon to complete the Examination For Discovery of me. Our third plan was to settle future care costs or go to pretrial to see what we can see said the male lawyer.
 Saw that guy from a distance who had ended the relationship and was so down. A song:
Nothing seems to matter. I don’t have any cares.
Any of my old excitement with anyone to share.
I crave the old excitement of pushing for a goal
Now it’s as if I’m sleeping like the mother and a foal
I’m new and I’m different and yet have seen the world
I have a lot of wisdom and yet feel like a girl
A girl who has no vision of what she can expect
Or what to reach ahead for, or what isn’t finished yet
Inside she is still searching for the man of her dreams
One more illusion shattered because of her past screams
Coming together through the sadness and the tears I do release
As I find the things that matter, and both of us to please
My sister phoned saying Mom was back in the hospital; has congenital heart disease and liver just about shot. I was hardly making it on a part-time salary and I offered $100.00 to my sister in the States if she wanted to come see Mom. Felt like I cried for three weeks straight. I bought my sister’s car, sold mine for $400.00. I ordered an oak table with 4 chairs for $1000.00. Then got angry. Back went out, spasms and had to go to the chiropractor which I hadn’t done since 1994. Then I screamed in the country for a few hours and had some energy. And then November 1, 1997 as if a sense of peace; the running was over. I knew I was tired and okay. Lots of sadness over what I’d just been through and felt like not enough caring in the world but realized how much I needed connectedness, relationships, roots; how much I am like an adult child and still wondering what I wanted my life to be about.
 Went to Prairietown and on way home, the car I just bought wouldn’t go in reverse. November 11, 1997 wrote my friend, “I am sitting in bed first thing in the morning on this holiday thinking of you. I am happy inside first time in months. Yesterday, I quit my job. What agony I go through to make changes in my life. Last few months have been really hard; never could figure out what exactly was the biggest issue or what I needed to do to change things. I loved your card. It made a difference in accepting that Mom is going to die. She is doing a little better right now. She was mostly in hospital since I talked to you; just getting out last Thursday – in there she is taken care of and she gets lots of attention and she blossoms some days. When I visited her she is like a child; excitedly telling me about the comings and goings in the hospital. I would enjoy the visit but when I’d leave I’d realize my Mom doesn’t know me. We had a family picture taken last weekend. I wouldn’t have been one to organize it but felt okay about it. I felt validated that she asked me first if I could be a part of it but it was still hard. The day was rough and I had a lot of body pain, was down and kept crying. Everyone knew it was hard for me so I guess it is still like all is unspoken but everyone knows and yet the talk – action is all superficial and after spending time with them, I leave and its like I know nothing about them; their lives or their families. It didn’t help that a sister said when I accept the Lord, this will be all over for me and it’s my sins and etc., etc. and had a quote for everything she was saying. It was a sad 10 minutes. That’s not why I quit work – I’m not even sure I can explain it. In June I took a week off when Tamara’s House hired an administrative assistant. At that time I said to a board member, “Not sure where I want my job to go and she said take the week to think about it.” I said, “I’m scared if I do, I won’t want to do this work anymore. I don’t know if its that or the church denying, Allinblack denying, Tamara’s House doesn’t have the money for my position and are trying to get me to ask other organizations to sponsor me. It’s like I lost the passion, the energy, the excitement about what I was doing. I did do a good job. I was there a year and did all the administration, lots of presentations in the community, developed the workshop and delivered it in 10 places so I feel really good about what I did and where the project went. Since the assistant came, it was like I’m at a loss as I turned it all over and even though I had a job description to go out and set up presentations in schools, communities, it reminded me of selling and constant refrain in my mind the last while is, “I don’t want to do this.”
 Saturday I was out in the country and knew I had to quit now and have been at peace inside about it ever since. It’s been five and a half years of living abuse non-stop, 24 hours a day is enough. There’s some things I want to finish up – personally – like my book – but I know I need to do something else and know I couldn’t keep working and look for something else because when I wasn’t at work, I was crying or so down and exhausted, I couldn’t. My doctor had given me a medical certificate to apply for sick leave benefits because of the amount of downs I’ve been in. Money will be scary for awhile and it’s nearly Christmas, but I don’t care. I need to do something different, not totally abuse and grief right now but something where I’m learning and filling myself up because right now I feel really empty. Here I’m paying $510.00 a month rent and its going up in February to $530.00 so may have to check something else out. The rest of letter was about her and how much I appreciate having her in my life. Felt listened to when I wrote that letter.
 Sorted out my house. Gave away my last crucifix. Had been a wedding present. I bought a book, “Nailed to the Church Doors” but havn’t been able to read it.
 Spent some time with Mom. She was chain smoking and eating spoonfuls of brown sugar. Being diabetic was not a deterrent. The ones I bought the car from offered to pay half for the transmission. I went to a group therapy meeting and the counsellor led a visualization. I wrote: “Took a pen on a journey. It became a feather in the sensory realm – my connection with birds; became a covered wagon, me like an Irish Gypsy left her family; had one love in her life, built something on her own, went into mystical realm, saw pink-indigo light, love and clarity, into spiritual realm; white light only on left side; words in my head – only on left side can I become clear – into archetypal realm; words – peace to be myself and a big white light left and right – into mythical realm – see my book on a lectern inside a church knowing – my book is as important as the bible”. White light pooling inside and then pain in left side neck and jaw and so tired when visualization ended.
 I began doing yoga. I was trying to find ways to nurture myself. Felt like I was doing deep healing. If thought about working, deep exhaustion would come over me. Did a lot of writing, did lots of dreaming felt like all night long. I gave my unpublished book to a survivor and she left the following message on my machine:
“After 4 pages of reading, I have to say, wow, phenomenal, such depth, so many levels, powerful, unsure if society is ready for it, needs to be published, could read it again, such intelligence. I am honoured that you shared it with me.”
I told Mom I wasn’t coming out for Christmas. The kids were going to their Dads. I was glad. I had no money. A few days before Christmas, I was on the phone with my Dad when he shares this: his Grandmother was Métis or an Indian. It had been a secret in the family. Got off the phone and said to myself, “A secret, wouldn’t you know it”. A poem:
It’s called a precious existence
Balancing old and new
Light and Dark
Everything Changes
Each moment new
My body’s aching
I’m sick of writing
Damn near exhausted
My female lawyer phones and says will put all on hold hoping the law will change in our favour as there was a case in front of the Supreme Court whether the church should have known a priest was abusing and whether a church would be held vicariously liable.
 The day before Christmas, a woman I know phoned and said every year they give a turkey and ham away and would like to give it to me this year. Could I pick it up. As her husband was handing me the big bag, he said, “Just get your head together”. I walked to my car wishing I could have said I have my head together. It’s my heart and soul coming together now.
 Asked kids to have Boxing Day at my house. I made a list of things to do Christmas Day:
-Put tree up boxing day
-Decorate before kids come
-Get nuts, candy, oranges today
-Pass the Pigs Game
-Cranberry Sauce
-Tarts, mincemeat, pumpkin pie
-Dishes, chips and dip
-Turkey, dressing, potatoes, jello salad
-Punch? Carrots, cabbage rolls
-Perogies? Buns
-Today take books to library
-Phone E.I. again
-Relax, there is time
 Wrote a fantasy, think of him saying, “Get your head together”. Feel like Rambo woman – imagine having a machine gun – back in farmyard – about 15 years old – outside – Dad gone – Mom and kids in house – just want to kick the shit out of something. The big fuel tank in the yard, I have steel toe boots on. Dad comes with grader. There is no gas. He can’t go nowhere. God is like a helium balloon. I let the air out. Go in and sit on couch and tell Mom what Stretch did to me while Dad is there. Dad is serving us tea. I say I don’t want this. I want herbal tea. He has no choice but to listen. Then Dad is gone, just Mom is there. Allinblack comes in the yard. I go out with a gun, flatten their tires and I say, “Get the hell out of this yard!” and I start walking and I follow behind him all the way to the church 2 miles away and I go into the church and I point him into the confessional and say sit in there and I start shooting him between the legs and I tell him even when I turn around, “You sit there” and I turn around and shoot crucifix exactly where all the nails are and it falls down behind the alter and I say, “Good, I don’t want kids to see that image”. I leave telling Allinblack, “You can crawl out of here on your hands and knees”. I go back to the farm and can’t go past Stretch’s house until I go in and say, “Don’t you ever touch me again or touch any kid and from now on you can walk” and I took his big 4×4 and I’m driving back to Saskatoon but I know I don’t want that big truck – don’t need it so I stop by a ravine and let it go over and it disintegrates as it goes down and I have a new cherry red sports car that is mine to get into that Calvin paid for.
 I talked to a counsellor who suggested I go one level deeper, that on some level each is me and look for that meaning. When I imagine an empty gas tank, it means so I will listen to myself. When I got rid of God, … rid of judgemental part of myself that is scared I’ll be in the wrong. When I wanted to get Mom to listen it’s the aspect of me that doesn’t give myself time. When I had Dad make tea, it’s the aspect that is too busy taking care of outside world to take care of me. When Allinblack came into the yard, it’s the part of me that thinks I can do anything. When I make Allinblack sit there and be shot at, it’s an aspect of me that knows I have to be responsible for actions. Jesus being shot down is part of me that doesn’t want anyone having power over someone else. Stretch had to listen and give up, it’s the aspect of me that it’s time to listen to the hurt, hurt girl and give up the running and … and the aspect of Calvin paying for a car freely is me wanting to pay my own way and be free, giving to myself.

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